PhorestFM Episode 328: Juliann Upton On Change As An Invitation To Come Alive

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Juliann Upton: I got a phone call one day from one of my clients and she said, Julianne, I’d love to take you for coffee. Oh, okay. Fun. Let’s go. I had no idea why, but I loved her. I still love her. She still is a client at the salon. And I went to coffee with her and she said, you know, there are times in your life when you see someone that you believe in and you watch them and you know that they have something different than everyone else around them.

And she said, I could very easily take my money and put it in the market and make money. But I want to take my money and put it into you and invest in you.

[00:00:57] PhorestFM Intro Music/Theme: We have an obligation to the industry [00:01:00] that we serve and in the right manner. Being a business owner ain’t for the weak. The expectations are just different.

It’s always a way. When you’re born into something this special, you can’t help but fight for it.

[00:01:12] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Cade Mila Falcha. 100,000 welcomes to the PhorestFM podcast brought to you by Phorest Software. I’m your resident host, Alex Bélisle-Springer, and joining me on the show today is Julianne Upton, the thoughtful, passionate, and driving force behind Mesh Hair Studio, Nail Bar, and Head Spa in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

I was exchanging a couple of voice notes with a long-distance friend the other day. We hadn’t spoken in a few months, and they were, you know, catching me up, telling me how, you know, life had just been lifing, constant waves, really good stuff happening, really horrific stuff happening. There’s life, there’s death, there’s everything all at once, is what they said.

Their reference to waves actually brought me back instantly to my sailing experiences of last year and the type of mindset that you have to [00:02:00]adopt when treading on one of nature’s most powerful forces. Anyways, they kept going on what they would later label as a ramble while I was sat there excited, knowing I was about to get another standout insight into the way they see the world.

And they said, I think my 30s have been spent realizing and really absorbing the fact that that is what life is. There’s not a period that you reach where life is only all chill and good and gray and nothing’s happening. Life is constantly ebbing and flowing. And the moment that you just get used to that, the at least somewhat easier this place begins to be able to be comprehended.

In the trailer for Season 10, I described the year 2020 as the one during which PhorestFM solidified its identity and intent, shaped by the voices of people showing up day in and day out, boldly and authentically for their teams, clients, and communities amidst the hardships and uncertainty at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic.[00:03:00]

I’d be willing to go as far as saying that if you’re listening to this right now, regardless of your role in the industry back then, that you were one of those people, and that you made it through those times not because you had a crystal ball giving you insights into the future. No. You made it through because you made do with the situation at hand, one small decision or action at a time, over and over again.

Change is unsettling, uncomfortable, even if and when we deeply want something we know is going to require it, like moving to a new city or launching a project, a new business. A creative I follow on Instagram, her handle’s Kitty Noor, and I’ll link the reel I’m about to reference in the show notes, but she shared something once that really stuck with me, and though she was coming at it from a creative or art practice perspective, I think it applies even to, say, moments where you’re forced to face change with creativity in business or life in [00:04:00] general.

What she said was, you can’t be creative and afraid of change at the same time. They cancel each other out. Your fear of change, like your fear of uncertainty, is killing your creativity. Creative energy is a form of change. Creativity is an agent of change. Change is an agent of creativity. Which I guess is inconvenient news for anyone trying to build something meaningful, whether it be a career, a business, a community, or a life that actually feels aligned.

Martha Graham, a primal artistic force of the 20th century, named Dancer of the Century by Time Magazine in 1998 and named among the female icons of the century by People Magazine, once described her dancing not as an attempt to interpret life in the literary sense, but an affirmation of life through movement.

In the same vein, she’s also known to have said, there is a vitality, a life force, an energy, a quickening that is translated through you into [00:05:00] action, and because there’s only one of you in all of time, this expression is unique, and if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium, and it will be lost.

It’s very easy to avoid or delay what we want on the basis of timing or that we’re not quite ready. We just need to think about it a little longer. The conversation we keep softening, the creative idea we keep shelving. But are any of those moments even really about readiness? Maybe they’re more about whether we’re willing to honor that life force moving through us.

As Lance Courtney shared in his episode last year, the life you want is on the other side of the work you’re avoiding, right? Now, how does this all fit in the context of this conversation with Julianne Upton, you may ask? Well, on the surface, our conversation revisits key moments of her career and the lessons she’s learned along the way.

But I’m a pattern seeker, and every meaningful chapter of her career, [00:06:00]of those she shared anyways, I feel began when she met her future self halfway in the unknown. Julianne graduated from Allure Beauty School in Tucson, Arizona, and she’s the driving force behind Mesh Hair Studio, Nail Bar, and Head Spa.

Over the last twenty years, Julianne’s talent, craft, and leadership have earned her a loyal list of customers, a loyal team, and an editorial resume. She’s described by her clients and team as thoughtful, energetic, passionate, and very detail-oriented. Our conversation not only reminded me of countless other conversations on the podcast with guests, the likes of Frank DeLuso, Greg Clark, Peter Borg, Hunter Donia, Ashley Hodges, Jen Bodior, Stefania Rossi, Tara Rose Kid, Betsy Morim, Rachel Page Thomas, the list goes on, but also of some of the pivotal moments that took place in the last decade of my own life too.

It’s easy to imagine that successful people have some special [00:07:00]tolerance for change. But listening to stories like Julianne’s, I’m pretty confident that that’s not true. What they seem to have instead is a willingness to affirm their lives through movement. Perhaps not the dancing type, but nonetheless, the type of action that sometimes gently, sometimes forcefully, invites us to come a little or a lot more alive.

Before we dive into that conversation, I’d like to take a quick moment to ask for your help. You might have noticed, and it is quite hard to miss, to be fair, it’s right there big on the cover, but season ten of the podcast is all about exploring and shaping what’s next together. And to do that, we need as many voices as possible in the conversation.

And this is where you come into play Whether you’re contributing a submission to an episode like the season finale from Season 9 or leaving a comment on or about the episode either via Spotify or social media, every bit of engagement helps the show reach that many [00:08:00] more folks in the industry. And one of the best ways you can support PhorestFM and help it grow beyond its current reach is by rating and reviewing it.

We have just about 95 ratings and 45 reviews on Apple Podcasts right now, and the goal this year is to get that number of reviews up to 350. And listen, I know we can get there. I’ll drop the link in the show notes, but if you’re listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, I’m calling on your help for this one.

Thank you so much. And without further ado, I have the pleasure of welcoming Julianne Upton to the show. Thank you so much for joining me on PhorestFM. 

Hey, Alex. Thanks for having me. I, I just wanna start off and say, um, thank you for everything you do, uh, for creating this opportunity to share stories with each other I think is so amazing and I just value what Phorest, uh, brings to the table for our industry and particularly the human-to-human connection.

So 

thank you. My pleasure and thank you [00:09:00] so much for that. That means a lot. I mean, it’s definitely something that’s at the heart of who we are at Phorest, like the connection piece that you mentioned there. I think it’s integral to everything that we do, the way that we come up with the agenda for our events.

It’s the ethos of the podcast, literally. So yeah, I appreciate you saying that. It means a lot. Yeah, of course. Amazing. So, oh my God, we got connected a few months ago. 

Mm-hmm. 

And I was, I mean, I was amazed by the, the ease and the flow that we had in our, in our initial call, like when we were just chatting just to see what we could explore, how we could go about this conversation.

And, um, one of the things that you had said was like, “I am very comfortable,” or, “have become comfortable,” I can’t remember exactly, but with change, that you don’t mind it as much. And I think that a lot of, [00:10:00] for a lot of folks in and outside the industry, change is hard. I mean, it can be really- Mm-hmm

confronting and I think it’s always good to have episodes here and there to remind us that we can do hard things. So I’m hoping through your shares, through your stories, your experiences, um, and, and insights that came from that or lessons that came from that, we can hopefully remind people that they already have everything that’s, that they need to face the hard things, that they need to face uncertainty.

Um, it’s all, it’s all inside. So yeah, how does that sound? 

[00:10:38] Juliann Upton: That sounds great and it’s so true. Um, we were brought to this earth to, um- Bring people up, in my opinion, and connect, and, um, we all have goals and, and things we wanna do, and ultimately, if we allow fear to hold us [00:11:00] back, then the doors will never open, whether it’s to a new friendship or a new business.

So- 

[00:11:06] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Hmm … I agree. Yeah, and fear can be, can definitely have, have us in a chokehold sometimes. Uh-huh. Moving through that is, um, is a journey to learn how to move through that. So I was thinking about how we could go about this, and, um, I was thinking, okay, maybe if we, like, focus in on five key or maybe pivotal moments in your career where you were willingly or forcibly by nature of life , you know, where you met your edges and, and em- and had to embrace change, or you, you decided, I’ve, I’m gonna take this risk, um, and, and the lessons that came from, from doing that.

Based on our call in December, I think the number one place we could start is your, I guess, unconventional start in the industry. You took on your first salon job, you were 15 years old, and it was a part-time job [00:12:00] already, um, at the front desk. Walk me through how that happened, your state of mind at the time, what the experience was.

[00:12:10] Juliann Upton: Sure. Absolutely. Well, I started, as you mentioned, in the industry at 15. I was very, very fortunate. Um, my hairstylist at the time, who had been doing my hair since I was in the third grade, um, so, you know, a few years- … um, worked for a, a large corporation in Arizona, um, that was locally owned. He was their top educator, and he decided to go out on his own, and in doing so, um, for whatever reason, he decided to call me-

um, and ask me if I wanted to help him run his front desk. Um, when I got that call, I was so excited. There was zero hesitation- Really? … in the offer. I immediately [00:13:00] said yes, and basically, you know, looked to my parents and was like, “Can I quit everything else I’m doing in my life?” “This is, this is awesome.” Um, and so yeah, so that’s where it started.

Uh, it was a part-time gig answering the phones, booking appointments, stocking shelves. Um, him and I had a pretty close relationship. He had always used me as his model whenever he was teaching classes. Yeah. Um, and obviously it developed over time, and that opportunity grew. I ended up working for him full time by the time I was 17.

And it was interesting, you know, I’ve really only looking back worked in four salons for my entire career, which I think is probably rare. Mm. And that salon in particular was all men. It was owned by a male and all the stylists that joined [00:14:00] during the time that I was there were all men. And I have never worked with all men since then.

But um, you know, I was there, the only female and obviously the baby of the group. Yeah. Um, and so they, they took great care of me and allowed me to, um, express myself. I learned new music. I remember at the end of every night, uh, that was back in the day when we had CDs- Yes. Wow … so I would put on the Eurythmics CD and jam out when I was cleaning the salon up for everybody and it was an amazing time.

I have no idea why he began to trust me in a manager role at the age of 17, um, but he did. Did you ever ask him- And- Like or want to ask him? Uh, I do wanna ask him now. Um, but back then I just, I guess I just was like, I, you know, “This is great. Yes, I’ll do that.” “I will chart your numbers and take them over to, [00:15:00] you know, the tax people and explain what we have here and order the inventory” and you know, I mean it was wild.

Um, but I learned a lot and I am forever grateful and I remember the moment one of the hairstylists that worked there, Ari was his name, and he was from Scotland and just wildly eccentric, you know, pulled out his shears and spun them on his fingers for his customers and um, drove this vintage Karmann Ghia convertible.

I mean he was pretty cool. And he came up to me and if I could do a Scottish accent I would try, but that would be bad. Um, and he, he said, “You know, you need to go to beauty school.” I’m like, “Me?” And he said, “Yes, Julianne, you have everything in, that it takes to be a hairstylist. You, you look the part, you, you can talk to anyone and, and we could teach you to do hair, but you would be amazing at this.”

Mm. And [00:16:00] it had never really dawned on me. I was just in the moment and loving it and when he said that to me I thought, “He’s right. I sh- I should go to beauty school.” So that’s, that’s how I got here. I ended up signing up for beauty school, um, went to school at night, chose the beauty school based off location and it was the one where um- Anyone coming out of jail had to go, um, if they chose, you know, that path.

Mm-hmm. And so it was rough around the edges, but I got to know the girls. They quickly learned that I had an opportunity to teach them how to do hair from being in the hair salon all day. Yeah. Um, and they, they taught me a lot and, um, that’s how it all started. 

[00:16:47] Alex Bélisle-Springer: What a story. Looking back, do you feel like that was probably one of the most enriching experiences you’ve had, being in the context of that specific beauty school?

[00:16:56] Juliann Upton: Yes, absolutely. [00:17:00] I, I, I’ve always been an outgoing personality and, and really excited to talk to people. Um, and I definitely was put in an environment where there was lots of individuals with walls, um, really thick ones, and they were super hard. Um, and I’ve, I’ve also always been very fearless, especially in that window of my life, right?

When we’re younger, we, we don’t know that we should be scared, or at least I didn’t. Um, and so, uh, it was enriching and it showed me a side of life that I had never seen before. Um, and it also showed me to always continue to be me because I didn’t go in there and, you know, not say hello and, you know, ask them about their lives, and aren’t you excited?

I mean, I just remember the individual I started school with. We were in the orientation and, and I looked at her. I’m like, “Hi, my [00:18:00] name’s Julianne Upton,” you know. “I’m so excited to be here.” Just this little bubbly, chatty person. And she just looked at me like, “Girl- … you, what, what?” And I, a- and I d- I just didn’t even stop with who I was.

And eventually, you know, sh- she taught me a lot. She knew how to cornrow. She knew how to press hair. Um, I had never touched textured hair before, you know. Mm-hmm. And so it was a m- it was definitely a huge moment in growth and to always be yourself, um, and allow people to be themselves and because the… it comes together, you know, whether it does at the beginning, middle or the end.

[00:18:45] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. It r- I resonate a lot with, um, with the idea that like when you allow yourself to embrace the different, different identities, the different parts of you, the things that [00:19:00] make you you, it also gives others permission to do the same. 

Mm-hmm. 

Agreed. Wh- when you think about like the 15 to 17-year-old you in all of that context, um, did you have any like self-doubt or like…

Was there anything that you felt challenged about? 

[00:19:20] Juliann Upton: During the window of opportunity where it all started and my path becoming very clear, I, I really was so excited and energized and quite frankly, fearless and way too confident. Um, and so, no, it wasn’t that moment or window that I faced challenges. It was the after, once I graduated beauty school.

Mm. Here I had the license and was on the salon floor, you know, doing my [00:20:00] thing, and it was in that moment, you know, I had been so focused, so energized, go, go, go, get, get to the finish line, and I got to the finish line and I thought, “Wow, I’ve worked so hard. Um, this has been– I’ve been handed basically everything to me on a silver platter,” right?

Gone through training program while in beauty school. Um, you know, of course, thought I was just the most amazing hairstylist that anyone was gonna meet. And, um, and yet I’m on the salon floor and for some reason I just feel like my, my growth here is done. Um, I just- Wow. It just, it just really… It, it, it was like this vessel has taken me to as, as far as it’s going to go.

And so, you know, that was probably the challenge, right? Mm. In realizing that and knowing that if I wanted to continue my [00:21:00] growth, that I was going to have to make a big change. Um, so I had to choose, you know, courage over comfort, right? Yeah. I, I was in a very comfortable place. Everyone knew me, I mean, from the floor shop next door and, you know, the, the market.

I mean, we all, we were all on first-name basis and, um, and so that’s ultimately what led me to, um, deciding to 

[00:21:26] Alex Bélisle-Springer: move. So I’m guessing that’s gonna be the second, uh, moment in your career that we’ll explore and everything that came from that. Um, but before we get into that, obviously, you know, you’ve said it yourself, you were entrusted with certain responsibilities at like the tender age of, like, 17.

Maybe not typical responsibilities for someone, uh, of that age in a business, but it reminds me of the, you know, generational conversation that we often hear, um, in and out of the industry anyways at this point with a younger generation coming [00:22:00] into the workforce. And I, I genuinely believe that we all have wisdom, we all have something to bring to the table no matter how young or old we are.

Do you feel in your experience, and maybe you respond to this, you know- In whatever way feels relevant, you know, either reflecting back or right now, do you feel like the industry has listened to or listens to the younger professionals enough? 

[00:22:31] Juliann Upton: You know, that is such a great question because it has been such a huge part of my experience being so young- Mm

and, you know, opening a salon at 26 years old. And, um, and I would say in the past, no, I do not think younger talent had a voice. And, you know, this is pre-social media and all that good stuff, so no. It was very much so you’re going to [00:23:00] come in here and do what I say and, and say what I do, and this is- Mm

how it’s going to be. And, um, I, I just… I will never forget being 18 years old and still feeling like I was being treated like a 15-year-old, and that, that I took with me into the future. And so now I have staff at the salon that have worked for me since they were 15 or 16, and I was never afraid to hire.

I had a 14-year-old at one point, um, and I was never afraid to hire young talent because I was the young talent at one point. Yeah. And if someone has a spark or energy or something that you can recognize, right, inside of them, that is a platform and a moment. All they need [00:24:00] is an opportunity, and I, uh, that’s what drives me is providing opportunities, um, and experiences and sharing what I have with them and vice versa.

Mm. So I would absolutely say now I don’t believe that to be a strong part of our industry, the culture of our industry. I think that has evolved, um, in a very positive way. I mean, just because you’re young doesn’t mean you don’t have anything to bring to the table. Everyone should have a voice. 

[00:24:35] Alex Bélisle-Springer: I agree.

Yeah. So that brings us to that big moment of change. You’re at a crossroads. Mm-hmm. You’re like, “Damn, I think this vessel has taken me where it has to, and I either stay in this comfort zone or I move past it.” Right. What happened then? So 

[00:24:53] Juliann Upton: I packed it up- And well, basically I looked at a map and, [00:25:00] um, determined one state over looked interesting.

Um, it was close enough, but far away, similar but different- Yeah … and reasonable for cost of living. And so I took a leap of faith. Um, really brought hardly anything with me. I, um, set myself up with a job, um, working at a youth hostel in exchange for a place to live, so I had no overhead. And boom, I got there, made a flyer, put it up on the wall.

So this is in Albuquerque? Albuquerque, and, uh, you know, Front Porch Haircuts, something like that. You know, I had some cheesy little name. And, uh, and so that’s how I got here. Um, and I did hair on the front porch. I hung out at the local coffee shop, and really got to know the town and the area. Um, and ultimately my goal was to [00:26:00] find out where the money was.

I knew, I knew I wanted to work where the money was. And I lived downtown Albuquerque, and there’s some money down there. Um, but I, it was… it became very clear as I explored, um, up by the mountains is definitely where the money was, and so I found a salon in that ZIP code. And, um, they were hiring, um, to pay by the hour, which I, that was not a structure that I had seen before for a hairstylist.

Yeah. Um, but it was, uh, appealing because I had zero clientele and knew two people maybe at this point. And, um, and so off I went. So I took that position. I met my first friend, I call her, um, in Albuquerque. And, um- What’s her name? Her name is Alyssa Shout out to Alyssa … s- [00:27:00] shout out to Alyssa. She actually works at the salon with me still.

Amazing. Um, this was 20-plus years ago. Wow. Um, and yeah, we connected right away. Just an amazing human. And she was getting paid by the hour, which was just mind-blowing to me because- … she had a full clientele. Uh, but she was young, out of beauty school. It was her first job, and so, you know, we supported each other.

Um, I taught her everything I knew about the industry. She taught me everything she knew about Albuquerque. Um, and basically from there, she ended up jumping ship to, um, a salon that was just opening, it was brand new, um, and took her whole clientele and instantly started telling me, “You’ve gotta come.

You’ve gotta come. Come on down.” You know? So- Yeah … it, it took a little while, but I [00:28:00] jumped, I jumped over there too, and that became the vessel, uh, where the community grew for me here in Albuquerque. Mm. I, I still worked two other jobs, uh, as a commission employee with no clientele. I knew I c- I could do it.

I was there every hour that we were open. I wore the flashiest outfits you’ve ever seen- … and the highest heels, and I just strutted my stuff up and down that salon. And I have clients to this day that still talk about, “I was sitting in someone else’s chair, but Julianne would walk by, and I’d look at her outfit and be like, ‘I want that girl to do my hair.'”

Um, so- I love it so much. Wow … you know? I mean, it was just… I, I think s- you know, our industry has gotten much more casual, and I don’t wanna harp on that, but we are in a vain [00:29:00] industry. We chose a, a… What we do is really about making people look and feel good- Mm-hmm … and you have to look the part, and I understood that.

Um, so I worked 10 to 12-hour days. I was available for anyone and everyone that wanted me to do their hair. And when I landed there, I told myself, “I want to open a salon in five to six years.” Um, and I did it. I- it took six, but I did it. So- Damn … um, it was very amazing. That, the salon owner that, uh, started that salon did not do hair.

She was a quirky little individual, um, who had owned several businesses and had good success. And as we got to know each other, um- She became a, a really powerful mentor that I think… [00:30:00] I knew she believed in me, but I don’t think I really understood what she taught me until after the fact. 

[00:30:09] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. 

[00:30:09] Juliann Upton: Um, we had had…

She had come to me in, um, gosh, I guess it was 2008, and said, “You know, the time has come. I am going to sell this business, and I think you should buy it.” And I’m like, “Amazing. Yes.” “Uh, sure.” Um- 

[00:30:31] Alex Bélisle-Springer: I love how you’re just like these things just, like, fall into your lap, and you’re like, “Absolutely. Why not?” 

[00:30:36] Juliann Upton: Yeah, I, I mean, I knew that was my goal.

I hadn’t really thought of owning this one in particular. It wasn’t quite my style, but at the same time, I’m like, “Here it is. Here’s, here’s the opportunity,” right? Yeah. Um, so we started negotiating, and, um, she was going to allow me to… [00:31:00] Basically she was going to finance me, and, um, and so I wrote her a retainer check.

And so when you do that, right, when you write a check- Mm-hmm … for a lump sum of money that you’ve worked your whole life to save- … you think, “This is happening.” 

[00:31:18] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. 

[00:31:18] Juliann Upton: Well, that is not how the story ended. Oh. Uh, turns out someone came along, um, and offered a cash offer, which is obviously a much better deal for someone selling a business than having to personally finance it to an individual.

And because she never cashed my retainer check, she just held onto it during the maybe month and a half, two months that we were finalizing everything from my perspective, um, the deal was never official. So she sat me down and told me, [00:32:00] “This other opportunity has come along, and I’m going to take it. But I know you are still going to have a salon someday, and I believe in you.”

Wow. So what is that, like 10 daggers and one little- That was, I was gonna say … one little heart pump? Yeah. Ah. It was a huge blow. I mean, it was devastating, right? Um- Yeah … everything I thought had fallen into place, which- Really, you know, it fell into place because of hard work. Mm-hmm. And, you know, so many people tell me that o- over and over.

I’m always like, “I’ve been so blessed, and, and everything has just sort of come along.” They’re like, “Because you’ve worked hard.” I’m like, “Yes, you’re right. Yes.” Um, and so y- I was devastated, and this was my job. This was how I made my living. And- Yeah … now I [00:33:00] had this sort of cloud hanging over me going in there every day.

Um, and I ha- I had a, I had a choice. I could either, you know, have this roll me up into a little ball and, and be done or, um, take a look at what’s happened and learn from it and decide what I’m going to do next. And so that’s what I had to do. I had to think of it from a different perspective. 

[00:33:32] Alex Bélisle-Springer: What was the biggest lesson that you came out of that with?

[00:33:36] Juliann Upton: Um, when things don’t go your way, that doesn’t have to be the end. So it- Yeah … you have… We make plans in life just for them to get broken, right? And the biggest lesson was, first of all, I wanted to be really angry [00:34:00] at this owner, right? Understandably. Right. And so I could blame her, or I could back up and see the bigger picture.

And so that was also something that I really, I think I took away, was w- tr- you know, not taking my emotions and pointing them at someone else- Mm … but backing up and seeing the, seeing the bigger picture. She had to do what was best for her, and that makes sense, right? And now I have to do what’s best for me.

So that’s really, I think, when all of that clicked, um, which, you know, took a minute. Let’s be real. Um, and the new owner wanted to sit down and talk to me. I, I went in there with a plan. And, um, you know, she pitched, “We could be co-owners, and I understand the position you’re in,” and all of her little story, [00:35:00] but I knew that she needed me.

At that time, I was her top producer. Um- Mm … and so, you know, what was she going to do? Let her top producer walk out the door of a business she just bought? She also had never been in our industry and knew nothing about it. So I laced up my boots and used it as a confidence builder I was about to buy this salon, and she needs me.

And I went in there, and I was very transparent. I told her I will still own my own salon someday. Mm-hmm. And sh- you know, sh- again, she kept pitching me to join her. I’m like, “Oh, no, but thank you.” And I renegotiated my income. 

[00:35:46] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yep. 

[00:35:47] Juliann Upton: And I walked out of there thinking, “Well, hot dog, this is great.” You know? That worked out.

Um, so- Wow … so yeah, s- that’s how that [00:36:00] went down. I mean, I have to say, I probably should’ve said this in the beginning, but I’ve been very fortunate to have a mentor in my life, like my father. Mm. These are not all ideas that I necessarily had on my own. And in the very beginning when I started working at 15 and it became clear that the beauty industry was my path, he told me to get a notebook and write down everything I’m learning, write down what I value from the leaders that I have- Mm

and what I would do differently, and to carry that knowledge with me moving forward. Because he could see that this was the path that was going to take me to my profession. Yeah. And so, so he’s mentored me obviously since the day I was born, but from a business perspective [00:37:00] all the way through. Um, and I’m, I’m very grateful for his words of wisdom and advice, so.

[00:37:06] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. So yeah. And what a wonderful piece of advice. I know, I know you mentioned- Right? … this on, on our call in December, like the notebook piece, but my God. Yeah. Even if you don’t plan on owning a business one day, you could easily apply this to, you know, a role as a manager or a mentor, you know, looking at what people you admire in those roles do and writing down notes, uh, in, say, that little notebook.

Um, what a brilliant idea. Right? 

[00:37:33] Juliann Upton: It’s so true. It’s so true. And that self-reflection- Mm-hmm … is, is key too, you know? Because when- Yeah … when you look back at your thoughts from five years ago- And you think to yourself, “Well, she was a little something, wasn’t she?” Because you have now five years of maturity under your belt- Mm-hmm

right? Um, there’s, there’s growth [00:38:00] there just in your own thoughts, let alone what- Yeah … you learned from someone else. So I think self-reflection is huge in those moments. 

[00:38:07] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. You were obviously very fiery back then. Do you ever, you know, in moments of doubt or, you know, of just, like, needing to ground yourself in your own knowing, um, do you ever look back or go into that notebook and look back at the things that you’ve written or just, like, you know, tap into that energy?

100%. 100%. 

[00:38:31] Juliann Upton: I, I mean, bless the humans that worked for me before I became a mother because that version of me I love to reference back to, um, because I was fiery. Yeah. I mean, there was nothing that was going to stop me, get in my way. I knew what I wanted, and I knew how I wanted to do it, um- Mm … because I had been so focused at such a young age on [00:39:00]that, right?

Yeah. Um, and so yeah, I do have to tap… That’s, that’s the girl I tapped into, um, with the idea of going to Dublin, you know? Yes. And facing that fear of my first international travel. So yes, I do 

[00:39:15] Alex Bélisle-Springer: look back and tap into her. I love that. What a gift to be able to be in conversation with the different versions of ourselves.

Um, okay. So you’re, at this point in this moment in your career, y- you’re in a position of power, essentially, in the salon. Um, what’s the next moment that you would want to tap into here that you feel was huge in where you’ve gotten to today? 

[00:39:45] Juliann Upton: So the opportunity that had arised from buying the salon was there because I was going to be financially backed by the owner for that- Mm-hmm

transition. And [00:40:00] so now I had the goal and, yes, the power, and renegotiated the money. So I, of course, started saving like crazy even though I’ve always, um, done fairly well in that department. But I started saving like crazy and talking, talking to my community. I, I had a huge clientele. I had, um, great support systems with all of my team members that had been there, um, through that and knew the story.

And it’s just so wild to think that- Instead of, again, just letting go of the dream, I just started focusing on it. Mm-hmm. And I got a phone call one day from one of my clients, and she said, [00:41:00] “Juliana, I’d love to take you for coffee.” “Oh, okay. Fun. Let’s go.” I had no idea why, but I loved her. I still love her.

She still is a client at the salon. And, um, I went to coffee with her, and she said, “You know, there are times in your life when…” You know, she’s significantly older than me. “When you see someone that you believe in, and you watch them, and you know that they have something different than- Mm … everyone else around them.”

And she said, “I could very easily take my money and put it in the market and make money, but I want to take my money and put it into you and invest in you- Wow … to make the money.” And I mean, I… my jaw just hit the floor. I was like, [00:42:00] “What?” 

[00:42:02] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Especially if you had no idea this is why the conver- like, the coffee.

No 

[00:42:07] Juliann Upton: clue. 

[00:42:08] Alex Bélisle-Springer: I had 

[00:42:08] Juliann Upton: no clue. No clue. Wow. She had given me zero indication that that’s what- … we were going to talk about. Um, and so there it was. There it was. So, you know, not giving up, continuing to connect with my comp- community, being raw and honest, right? That’s very vulnerable. Mm-hmm. I… This was happening, and then it didn’t happen, right?

Yeah. Um, and not losing hope and the faith in it is really what brought the next chapter on, 

[00:42:41] Alex Bélisle-Springer: so. Mm. I- I’m assuming you went ahead with that proposition. Oh, yes. Yes, of course. So that means from there you’re letting go of a previous chapter or about to embark in a, onto a new one. Do you remember if you, you know, were [00:43:00] holding on to two truths at once, you know, being excited to get onto this new journey and also holding the…

Maybe disappointment isn’t the right word, but any of the feelings that the owner that you’re now having to have this conversation about, “Hey, I’m moving on,” um, might show you in that conversation? 

[00:43:21] Juliann Upton: You know, when she came, she had done something really crazy by buying a salon and having, uh, no experience whatsoever.

And our relationship Never got any deeper than her, um, pulling me aside in urgency and need, and me saying, “I’ll be here to do my job. I- you know what my goals are, and I’m sorry I’m not, I’m not your manager.” [00:44:00] And giving a little advice here and there. You know, for example- Mm … you have to have a cosmetology license to, uh, have an establishment license, and so I let her use me as a cosmetology license.

You know, I gave her little tidbits here and there. Um, but I was a little bit ferocious in, um, my approach with her because it wasn’t my job to run the business she bought, and we, you know, we never really had a deep, deep relationship. I just- Right … immediately pivoted into what my next move was. So I did carry weight on having to, um, jump ship, right?

Mm-hmm. Uh, but the ship was sinking, and, you know, and I’m sorry for her. Um, and there’s been many times now over the [00:45:00] 15 years of owning my own salon where I’ve had, um, variations of stylists leaving and- Yeah … the, what that felt like and the process, and me reflecting on what that felt like for her, right?

Mm. Um, but I would say that I was very transparent on my plans and- Yeah … and I just stayed focused on that, um, and let her baggage be hers and my focus be mine. 

[00:45:30] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Fair enough. So. Do you have any advice for owners or leaders or even just anyone looking for a word of encouragement when, like, you have to say the hard thing knowing that it’s the right thing for you, but it’s still gonna be a hard conversation?

[00:45:48] Juliann Upton: Well, it’s… I mean, it’s the simple quote of, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,” right? Mm. Um, because ultimately you have to go weather the storm [00:46:00] to get to the other side. And so avoiding hard conversations because they’re uncomfortable will not get you to the other side. Mm. You have to confront it.

And, you know, it’s just one of those things. You’ve gotta lace up your boots, get it done so that you can move on. Because the other side is a beautiful place and space. And again, that’s, you know, facing your fears to go forward is key in life. It’s, it’s really the only way to keep going forward. And 

[00:46:35] Alex Bélisle-Springer: so yeah.

When you mentioned, you know, facing the storm or going through the storm, it reminded me of a conversation that I had with my sailing instructor last year. I’ve been working on getting certified to sail. And so anyways, I was, I was asking about his experiences on the water. We were heading into a storm, so I was asking him about, you know, what’s the [00:47:00] best approach?

Do you try to go along with it and kind of avoid it, or is the better way to go through it even though it’s gonna be rockier for a certain amount of time? And he shared with me this, like, anecdote from a past sailing trip that he’d done where they had essentially, um, made that decision to just kind of try to avoid it as long as possible, and they got weathered for so much longer.

And that to me was just such a metaphor for life , you know? 

[00:47:32] Juliann Upton: 100%. 100%. You’ll get there so much quicker if you just face it now. And my dad has told me that for years when it comes to management, is just do it now. You, you need to have the conversation, don’t put it off. It g- it will only get worse. Mm-hmm.

And it’s, it’s true. It’s true, 100%. 

[00:47:58] Alex Bélisle-Springer: So now [00:48:00] you… we’re jumping forward, but you, I’m assuming, have your salon started or you… Or maybe what’s the next moment? Maybe that’s the better question. 

[00:48:09] Juliann Upton: Yeah. I mean, basically, uh, from there, I started, uh, looking around for locations, negotiated with my amazing, um, client who believed in me, and, uh, started looking around.

And so this was, um, this was like after the market had crashed, and there were a lot of vacancies, and so- Yeah … a great time to open a business, um, as far as negotiating build-outs and leases. And the, uh, owner of the complex that I landed in, um, ended up, you know, he always referred to me as the bee. “You would buzz over here and fly around, and then you’d buzz away.”

And so it took me a while. I had to take… You know, you have big ideas. If you’re an [00:49:00] entrepreneur or someone who’s doing something, your ideas are huge, you know? 

[00:49:03] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:04] Juliann Upton: Um, so my… I, I was looking at 3,000 square feet, right, spaces and et cetera. And, and so it took me a while to sort of get back to reality, um, and realize, um, it- you have to start small.

You have to start small. Um, and that, that takes a minute. And so I, I negotiated, I landed the spot. I still worked at the salon Um, that I had been at… I would work all day, go over there at night, you know, check on the construction, and it was, I, it was just a smo- a smooth, you know, worked, worked, worked, worked, worked, put in my notice, and then boom, opened right up and- Wow

and just slid right in. So we opened October 2010, um, one employee and myself, and off we went, um, with our little 1,000 square foot… I love to refer- … to the old space as [00:50:00] our little shotgun salon. It was just, you know, a, a 

[00:50:03] Alex Bélisle-Springer: one shot all the 

[00:50:04] Juliann Upton: way back. 

[00:50:06] Alex Bélisle-Springer: I was gonna ask, you beat me to it, but I did wanna ask how many square feet in the end?

[00:50:10] Juliann Upton: Yeah. It was… I got, I got down to, I mean, it was, it might have even been 980 square feet, right? Um- Yeah … but yeah. Uh, w- and, and most of it was the salon. I remember, you know, nothing good ever came out of a salon break room back in the day. It was just really, like, culturally speaking, just a very sticky zone.

Um- Mm … and so when I, uh, I like to refer to Mesh 1.0 and Mesh 2.0, because we’ve since expanded. Um, but Mesh 1.0, the break room is, like, laughable, the size of it. I mean, laughable. It was basically like a closet, your typical- … closet where… And I had like a bar with stools and that’s it. It’s like, you go back there to [00:51:00] eat, take a minute, and then we’re back at it.

Um, because yeah, I, I really wanted to build a culture of- Mm … teamwork and support and positivity because I had that working with all men. Yeah. And then the two salons I was at before Mesh, I had not had that. Um- Mm-hmm … which I think especially back then was the culture of our industry. And so, I, that’s what I wanted.

I wanted a salon that supported, uh, their staff, um, created a, a balance, a work-life balance, um, and that was positive. You know, we all have to work, right? Everyone has to get up every day and do a job to make an income. Unless- Yeah … you know, unless you’re blessed with a different story. But- Yeah. … you know, why not love what we do and be excited to go to a place where you’re excited to [00:52:00] see the people you’re working with?

And so- Yeah … you know, that’s, that was one of my biggest drives, um, in creating a culture. 

[00:52:09] Alex Bélisle-Springer: So Mesh 1.0, creating a culture, really learning the deep end of business ownership. Um, what’s a moment that you would reflect on where you felt you met- one of your edges where you were like, “Wow, I’ve learned something new about myself here”?

[00:52:31] Juliann Upton: I think it was something that was given to me as advice from the original owner of the last salon, the one that pulled the carpet out from under me, so to speak- Yeah … um, with the sale. When I called her to tell her it’s happening, she said, “Of course it is, and I’m so proud of you.” And she said, “I have one piece of advice for you, [00:53:00] and this is really important.”

And I was like, “Oh.” Um, and she told me, “Your bar for yourself is very high, and therefore, that’s your expectation of everyone around you.” 

[00:53:16] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Hmm. “

[00:53:17] Juliann Upton: You set the bar high, and you expect everyone around you to meet that high bar. And as a new leader and a new mentor for the next round, I would highly recommend that you lower the bar and meet people where they’re at because no one is ever going to meet the expectation at the level that you h- hold for yourself.”

I was like, “Wow. I, you know… Whoa,” that- Damn … to, to have someone put that in perspective for you as, again, someone… I was just ferocious, fearless, on a mission, right? Yeah. Um, [00:54:00] a- and, and to really think about it as, as a new leader, that is something that I had to readdress regularly. Hmm. Any time those expectations weren’t met because, you know, let’s face it, someone tells you that, it…

You don’t instantly put it into play. Uh, you carry it, uh, and then you think in moments wh- when things are happening, “Well, I guess that’s what she meant by that,” right? Yeah. Um, and so I would say that was a huge learning curve for me. Um- Hmm … and really, again, I s- mentioned it once already. Becoming a mother was one of the most humbling experiences of my life.

You would think I- opening a business would be it, but I’m sorry, no, it wasn’t that. It was, um, the… Having something that I really actually had no control over- Yeah … um, really [00:55:00] humbled me. As a Type A control freak, um, that, that really humbled me. And then I think- I became much softer around the edges in my leadership style.

And- Interesting … it’s, it’s… That, that is one of my biggest growths, I would say. It- we’re always growing when you’re a leader. You’re always growing- Yeah … when you’re not a leader. But in the 15 years, I would say the first seven, um, were a phase of ferocious, humbled, ferocious, humbled until I’m now, you know, where I am.

Um- Yeah … which I think is a, with a little more compassion and balance. 

[00:55:43] Alex Bélisle-Springer: You’ve, you’ve obviously always been super driven and trusting of the universe and its gifts, and reaping the fruits of the seeds you plant and the hard work you do. Now that you’re an owner and you have a team [00:56:00] that you’ve seen grow, some even from, you know, the age of 14, 15, how do you model courage and resiliency for them when you are at a place in life where you know that change and uncertainty are going to be a constant in life?

[00:56:19] Juliann Upton: You know, it’s, it makes me think instantly of the COVID era. Um, because a time, an extreme time of uncertainty, and here, you know, everyone’s looking at me for leadership, um, when our business is closed for 12 weeks and- Wow … you know, we don’t have any income coming in, therefore they don’t have any income.

And modeling- Yeah, it was a scary time … it was a scary time, right? And, and here you are as the leader. And, and, and so I just try [00:57:00] to show them a silent strength in a lot of ways, um, just by being present, but also a positivity, um, coming in every day, you know, ready for the day, uh, being willing to have our moments where, you know, things are happening in everyone’s lives, right?

And allowing people to have those spaces, but then encouraging them, “You know, we can do this. To… We’re gonna focus on the now, today, and we’ll face the rest when it’s over,” right? Um- Mm … and so weathering that storm, um, but doing it together. And, um, I feel like that’s what we’ve created at Mesh, is a culture where everyone knows if someone’s going through something, whether it’s verbally discussed or you can just feel it in their energy.

Mm. [00:58:00] And I’m so amazed- All the time when I literally watch the team rally around each other and, you know, someone’s running behind because they’re emotionally distressed, but they’re out on that stage performing, holding it together. And as soon as they’re done with their guest, walk them to the front, the whole team just swarms to the station, you know, to sweep the hair, wipe down the chair, um, reset for the next guest.

And, um, it’s those moments that I look around and I think, “Yep, this is what we’ve created.” And I think that I have always done that for them, and I still do it today. I– there’s not a day you will not see me do the nitty-gritty work of running, um, the salon, and it’s to support, right? And so- Yeah … it’s, it’s a leadership, but being right there with them through it all, right?

Weathering the storm together, um, and [00:59:00] recognizing, you know, this is probably the hardest thing you’ve ever done in your life, right? Mm. Or, you know, I recognize that you’ve never had someone who believes in you, so you don’t know what to do with me. But I want you to know I’m here to help you, and I want to see you succeed.

And that’s a new feeling for you. Mm. And so let’s embrace that together, right? Um, and so I try to just see people for where they are, who they are, but also 

[00:59:32] Alex Bélisle-Springer: who they can be. Mm. Well, it sounds like your team is really tight-knit. 

[00:59:38] Juliann Upton: Yeah. It– we are, and the fifteen years we’ve been open, I would say eighty-five to ninety percent of our era in, in teamwork has been that.

Um, and there have been moments as a business owner, like when we expanded right after COVID- Yeah … that [01:00:00] I was making business decisions because my overhead had doubled, right? Um, I had to hire and fill the stations. And, and the– and so I filled the place up, kept it moving. I was really focused on our nail bar.

We expanded, blah, blah, blah. And I– we went on a trip as a group for education, and on that trip it became very clear to me that I had sacrificed culture over f-finance, really. And it bothered me a lot because it was not who we were, and it wasn’t who I wanted us to be. Yeah. And I came home, and I made- The very next day we were open.

Very tough decisions with [01:01:00] staffing, and I knew that meant I was going to have to get back behind the chair full time, which I had been slowly easing out of. Um, but I decided I would rather weather the storm and get to the other side and do it with the culture and the team that I knew we were, and I do not regret it for one second.

And it was bold. It was quick, again, you know, and, and it took a minute for the dust to settle because obviously everyone’s like, “Whoa, what just happened?” Right? Yeah. Am I next, right? Um- Yeah … but I was very clear. I was very clear th- I… This is w- I’ve made this decision, and I promise you, three months from now, everyone’s going to feel it and understand it.

And people who didn’t know why, which was basically everyone, um, you know, [01:02:00] later came up to me and said, “It feels like 1.0 Mesh again. It feels, it feels like our… You know, it’s back.” And, um, that decision I’ve never regretted and I’m grateful for, and moving forward, it just, it made everything clear for me on how I wanted to grow.

[01:02:23] Alex Bélisle-Springer: What a story. Honestly, this has been amazing. How, how do we even close this off? How would you want to close this off? 

[01:02:31] Juliann Upton: Well, I think, you know, there’s so much more to say, so, uh- Of course Uh, uh- We’re, like, jumping 

[01:02:41] Alex Bélisle-Springer: years, like, so quickly. I know. I know. 

[01:02:45] Juliann Upton: Um, I think the important thing is, you know, just to kind of close it off, when, when you have something that you are working towards and [01:03:00] you know your gut is telling you, you know, this is what you want, this is what you need, this is what you don’t need, right?

You have to listen to it. And I knew I wanted to grow Mesh. I knew I wanted to expand it. I just started putting it out there, and it happened, you know? And it’s the same, it’s the same story all along, right? And so whether you believe in energy work or not, um, I’m here to tell you I believe in it. Um- 

[01:03:33] Alex Bélisle-Springer: I believe in it, too.

Right? 

[01:03:35] Juliann Upton: So… You have to just put it, put it… Write it down, right? Um, say it out loud. Um, sing it if you’re a singer, right? Dance it. Um, will it into existence. And focus on it and stay focused, um, and weather the storms, and it will happen. I really believe it will happen because that’s, [01:04:00] um, how we’ve gotten here today, uh, with Mesh, in my opinion.

[01:04:05] Alex Bélisle-Springer: So… Hmm. Well, before we come to a close officially, let me ask you this. How do you describe the culture at Mesh? How do you describe the energy? 

[01:04:17] Juliann Upton: Yeah. You know, um, Mesh is a, a place, um, this was kind of always our slogan, so I’m gonna use it, you know, where we mesh different cultures, mesh different hairstyles, um, and now mesh different beauty offerings, um, to bring people together.

And, um, it’s sort of like, you know, Cheers on the corner where everybody knows your name. Um, that’s, that’s what Mesh is. If you’ve been there once, we know who you are, and you’re going to get a greeting with your first name by at least two team members the moment you walk in the door. [01:05:00] Um, we believe in community, and we believe in the services that we offer and the power that they have in our customers’ lives, and we believe in connection.

Um, and so Mesh moving forward, um, their- the season of, um, salons and spas, in my opinion, is coming back, and having all of your services available for your guests under one roof, that is coming back, and that is something I’ve always held onto. And so that is what we have, and I believe we will continue to grow with that, um, and continue to be a one-stop shopping, um, location that is, yes, bigger, um, but still has that intimate feel, um, based off of the faces you [01:06:00] see every day, like Beth, my manager.

Uh, if, if I- if Beth’s not in the front and a customer comes in and they see me, they’re like, “Oh, hi, Julianne. Where’s Beth?” Right? Uh, if, if I answer the phone and it’s not Beth, they’re like, “Hi, Julianne. Is Beth there?” Um, and so, you know, that is our team. Um, w- it’s solid, it’s consistent, and, um, and w- we believe in community.

[01:06:30] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Hmm. I wanna circle us to an official close with this one question. Mm-hmm. Um, because I feel like you’ve had many, many moments like this where you probably had to lean into to something like this. But- Knowing that you believe in energy work as well, like, do you do anything, or how do you honor closing chapters, [01:07:00] whether they’re big or small, whilst being catapulted into new beginnings all at once?

Mm. Is there anything you do personally to kind of honor those, those chapters that are closing and those that are beginning? Yes, absolutely. 

[01:07:16] Juliann Upton: I think, um, reflection is huge. So journaling, um, you know, thinking and putting it on paper is such a process, um, where you can close a chapter to start a new one.

And also sharing and connecting. Uh, I, I’m very honest and open about everything really, and so, you know, we celebrate the ends of things. You know? The team will tell you at the, the last Saturday of the holiday season, every time a team member does [01:08:00] their last guest, I’m, I’m screaming from the back clapping, “You did it.

Congratulations.” You know? “Your season has closed.” And, and so we celebrate, um, loudly. Um, and then also, again, finding those quiet moments to journal, reflect, and plan, really. Continue… You know, thoughts come up, write them down, because that’s how you start that next chapter. 

[01:08:28] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Julianne, I can’t thank you enough for today, for this conversation.

I feel like obviously we have only scratched the surface. There’s so much more we could have said, so many more stories we could uncover. Um, but I do think we genuinely unearthed amazing insights and many, many of them. Um, so honestly, just thank you so much for this. Thank you for the shares. Thank you for the self-reflective, introspective episode.

And I can [01:09:00] only hope for people who are listening that it’s landing, that it’s resonating no matter where they are on their journey. 

[01:09:08] Juliann Upton: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. It’s been amazing. I love your energy. 

[01:09:15] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Thank you. I appreciate that. Before I let you go, one last, last thing, I promise. Um, anyone wanting to reach out to you, you said you were an open book.

What is the best way for people to get in touch? 

[01:09:28] Juliann Upton: Yeah. Uh, Mesh Hair Studio Instagram handle. You can DM. That is me. Turns out I run that thing. And, um, also email, info@meshhairstudio.com. And I’m around. It’s pretty easy to find me, actually. I think if you just click a few buttons, you’ll, you’ll find me.

[01:09:50] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for this. Thanks for your candid shares. Really appreciate the openness. 

[01:09:58] Juliann Upton: Yeah. Absolutely. [01:10:00] Thank you so much. 

[01:10:02] Alex Bélisle-Springer: The next time you notice yourself reaching for certainty as a condition for action, my hope is that you meet your future self halfway, that you take at least one deep, nourishing breath, and this is a reminder for me too, and recall the last time you did something you deemed courageous so that you can also recall all the evidence of the expansion and aliveness that came with that action.

And if you’re looking for an additional push in this direction, in digging through some of the most popular episodes of 2020, I ended up playing back clips from a conversation we had with Marcus Allen, global VP of the Refinery then, now sitting as the head of business for the Fellowship for British Hairdressing.

He joined the show not long after his Salon Owners Summit keynote. Let me read you the episode description. “Often described as thinking outside the box, creative thinking is what drives innovation and progress. Seeing situations from a [01:11:00] different perspective can have a substantial impact on problem-solving, communication, leadership, sales, marketing, and many other aspects of running a business.

For many, though, thinking in new, unconventional ways when facing adversity doesn’t come naturally. This week’s conversation explores the value of creative thinking in business, as well as the link between leadership, self-awareness, vulnerability, and management.” That would be season four, episode 150, titled Marcus Allen on Facing Challenges and Thinking Creatively About Your Salon Business.

Perhaps your next listen as you define your next change-driving step. Thank you so much for spending the past hour or so with us. Next week, there are no episodes. We’re back to our regular program, which means a new episode comes out every second week. So we’ll catch you then. And until then, Michaela, Tom, and Jake Cross.

Together, we grow.

The [01:12:00] PhorestFM podcast is brought to you by Phorest Software. More than software, we’re on a mission, together with our community, to build a stronger industry.

[01:12:16] Alex Bélisle-Springer: This episode was edited and mixed by Audio Z, Montreal’s cutting-edge post-production studio for creative minds looking to have their vision professionally produced and mixed.

Great music makes great moments