Phorest FM Episode 330: Leading In Alignment With Joanne Starkman: A Continuous & Conscious Return To Self

Episode Transcript

Leading With Alignment With Joanne Starkman: A Continuous Conscious Return to Self

[00:00:00] Joanne Starkman: We need to unplug. You know, I’m kind of a workhorse, and I definitely, um, can take a lot on for sure. But I think these kinds of things, I, I’m… Probably what I’m bringing back for myself is remembering, like, these kinds of unplug opportunities need to be done. Like, they are a non-negotiable time for yourself.

When you’re really aligned, you can get so far so fast, as opposed to trying to, like, beat your head up against a wall and do it the hard way. Like, work is hard, and this needs to be hard. And I think I’m just getting to a place, like, the power of presence and being able to be present, like, with myself.

Does this feel aligned with me?

PhorestFM Intro: We have an obligation to the industry that we serve in the right manner. Being a business owner ain’t for the weak. The expectations are just different.There’s always a way. When you’re born into something this fall, you can’t help but fight for it. 

[00:01:03] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Cead mile failte. 100,000 welcomes to the PhorestFM Podcast, brought to you by Phorest Software. I’m your resident host, Alex Miller Springer, and joining me on the show today is founder and chief visionary officer Joanne Starkman, the heart of Innoscence Organic Beauty, and someone who brings soul and purpose to everything she does.

I have been thinking about all the different ways I could introduce this conversation with Joanne. Her two most recent podcast episodes on her own podcast, Trust Your Innoscence with Joanne Starkman, two episodes that I thoroughly enjoyed listening to, two episodes she spends sharing her experience and, I think maybe to an extent, continuing to process her experience at the Sacred Spiral Retreat.

The one that she did with Louise Keen is absolutely fascinating. I’ve been thinking about the spiral symbolism, which she brings up in those two episodes, but also comes up in this conversation, and [00:02:00] how, you know, the closer you get to the center, the closer you get to the truest version of yourself and perhaps, I don’t know, like the eye of a hurricane.

Who knows? Maybe the calmest version of yourself, um, most grounded. How everything else before we get to the center is, maybe for lack of a better word, filled with a lot of noise. I could talk about B Corp and doing business as a force for good, or connect Joanne and I’s conversation back to Earth Day 2026 and back to the importance of caring for the land, and make ties to the concept of a circular economy.

This year’s Earth Day theme was Our Power, Our Planet: Shifting From Awareness to Responsibility, a word and feeling that we explore at some point in our chat. I could talk about individual and collective accountability for actions. Remembering self-love and awareness as enablers of growth, the different kinds of human connection we need to flourish with ourselves, with others,nature, something greater than ourselves.

I was thinking about the transformative healing power our industry holds, about partnership, about the CliftonStrengths assessment, also known as StrengthsFinder, um, which we mention at some point in the episode, and, you know, both Joanne and I took at some point. And yet, the words I keep coming back to are meander and flow, for a few reasons.

Flow because no matter how long I’ve been doing this, I still get a little nervous before every recording. And I feel as though Joanne and I in this conversation reached what scientists called flow state. And for those who might not know, it’s defined in this way: total absorption in an activity, which in effect banishes anxiety.

And meander, because not only is it in some ways I think the essence of our conversation, but also because it comes back to the essence of doing the work to meet our truest self. Growth requires us to explore the vastness of ourselves, to meander. Leadership is a lot like that too, I would argue. Finding your way, your style, what works, what doesn’t.

And well, for you listening, what might resonate the most with you in this conversation might not be what stuck out to me. So boxing the conversation into an intro that has one specific angle feels at odds with everything I just shared. So come the end of this episode, you tell me what parts landed for you, what feels like something you need to sit with for longer.

Make sure you leave a comment on or about the episode, either via Spotify or social media. And if you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, my biggest ask this year, and one of the best ways you can support PhorestFM, help us bring more voices into the conversations we have here, is to rate and review the show.

We have a hundred and eight ratings and fifty-one reviews on Apple Podcasts right now, and the goal is to reach three hundred and fifty reviews. There’s a direct link for that in the show notes. But yeah, thanks in advance. Now, a brief intro to Joanne Starkman before I leave you to the episode. Joanne’s the founder, chief visionary officer, and soul of Innersense Organic Beauty.

She’s an energy healer, hair stylist, devoted mother, and also the spiritual connection between Innersense’s clean, high-performance products and the stylists and consumers who trust them, creating the self-care affirmations featured on every product, weaving mindfulness and intention into the brand’s clean beauty philosophy, and leading the brand’s wellness initiatives.

Joanne is focused on caring for the caregivers, the stylists of her beloved beauty industry. She’s passionate about empowering others to care for themselves inside and out, and inspires audiences with her holistic approach to wellness, beauty, and conscious living. I hope if anything, this episode lands as an invitation to you to tap into your Innersense to fulfill mind, body, and spirit.

All right. Without further ado. Joanne, thank you so much for joining PhorestFM. Thanks for making the time. Mm-hmm. I have been so excited for this. 

I’m so excited too. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. This is gonna be a lot of fun, I can tell already. 

I, yeah, honestly, I feel like we could probably talk for way longer than what we have scheduled, but listen.

I wanted to start with something that you will appreciate and will give a little bit of context as to the direction for the conversation. Um- Mm-hmm … and I wanted to say first for people who might not know- Mm-hmm … you didn’t start a clean haircare brand as a trend and much rather as a genuine concern for the health of people, uh, hair and the planet as well.

And the philosophy for Innersense rests on four pillars: quality and efficacy, conscious transparency, people, hair, and planet, and integrity and intention. Now, you spent St. Paddy’s Days [00:07:00] over in Ireland, which in and of itself is an experience. But I don’t think the timing really, like, had anything to do about it because, um, you…what you were really there for was to study the indigenous practices of the wise women of Ireland, and I’d love to start there. 

[00:07:18] Joanne Starkman: Oh, I love that. This is a great conversation. Well, um, yeah, I think, um, oh, boy, where do we even start? I mean, incredible. Like I had told you, I just on my podcast just interviewed the woman that led the Sacred Spirals retreat.

Mm. And then on my next podcast after that is my solo cast on the Um, you know, just kinda diving deeper into it. So- Yeah … What can I tell you here now? Um, it was called the Sacred Spiral Retreat. It was a group of, I, I think there were 12 of us, 12 women, two facilitators, and one of them, Kate McKinnon, she is actually a craniosacral therapist, and so she’s been, was a client of mine for years and years and years and years when I was doing hair- Mm

and I would receive craniosacral therapy from her. And then it was a woman that she met, Louise, who was also a craniosacral therapist, who lives in Ireland and considers herself an Irish wise woman. Um, the two of them met, and they are the two that conceived this wonderful journey. And we got to stay on Louise’s property, and this was a property where she was raised as a child, so she had this beautiful fairy Phorest there.

At the start of it, we got into town, and we got to the retreat center, which is also her house, so it’s one big, like, retreat center on one side, and then her house is also there as well. But we started a circle in… under this gorgeous oak tree that is hundreds of years old- Mm … and just, um, grounded and kinda set our intentions.

And then we walked into the Phorest, where she put this, set up this, uh, fire, and so we had a fire ceremony to set our intention for the whole retreat, which was really powerful. So if you can imagine, I’m just meeting these women. You know, Kate I knew, and then my sister came with me, and then also another hairstylist, so the three of us obviously knew one another, but, um, the rest of the women I did not know.

So we’re just meeting all these women for the first time in this lush, gorgeous Phorest, and, like, you can just feel the fairy energy. It was so incredible. And, uh, Louise has such a reverency for the land and for just everything, the intention and everything that we’re doing, so it just felt so like we had been there, like we had come home.

Mm. Really incredible. Then at that point, after the fire ceremony, I can’t remember all the names of the places that we went. Oh, my gosh. You’re gonna have to listen to Ka- um, to Louise and, um, my solo cast ’cause maybe I have some more names. But we went to this one site, and mind you, all these sites are, like, older than the pyramids.

Wow. So they’re just so ancient. But this first one that we went to was, like, this circle of rocks, not like Stonehenge. Like, don’t imagine rocks, like, that big, but it’s almost like you would step down in, and then there’s gr- a grassy area, which is, you know, obviously overgrown. I’m sure it looked different way back when.

But this circle of rocks, and we Every place we went, she, we carried oats with us because we would always, um, give offerings to the site- Mm … to the spirits, to the energy of the place, and we walked these stones and just would put our hand on it and feel the energy. And then she, um… There was these fairy bushes.

I’m not gonna do any of this much… I’m a Phorest student, so I’m not gonna do it, any service other than to tell you my lived experience. But as far as the details are concerned, you’re gonna have to look it up. But they have what they call these fairy trees or these fairy bushes. Right. And these are very revered in all of Ireland, like, to the point where people will not cut them down.

Like, if, like- Mm … Louise tells this one story on my podcast that this whole, this city wanted to put, like, a roadway through. And it’s not every tree that’s a fairy tree. It has a certain quality, and I think that there’s usually, like, a stone nearby or something that marks, like, what is considered, like, a fairy tree.

But there is lore around if you cut these down, that you will be basically screwed. Right. Like, your whole life and everything. So, um, we learned a lot about that. Um, so there was one there. That was the first one that we were able to encounter. Mm. And, um, it was so beautiful and magical. On that day, it was kind of windy and a little bit rainy off and on.

There was one… And in Ireland, I don’t- Classic for Ireland. Right? Exactly. Exactly, like all four seasons in- Yes, all the time … the matter of, like, one hour. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And so we, at one point, we all had a huddle under this big tree, and it was like a downpour, but then after that broke, we got out and kinda were traipsing around again and went to this one area, this other kind of circle, uh, stone circle area.

Smaller, much, much smaller, but she wanted to show that to us. And then next thing you know, there’s a massive rainbow. So it’s like we’re greeted- Mm. It was just incredible. When I think back to that very first day, it was almost like it was like a whole weekend that we spent already in Ireland. It was so chock-full and so packed and- 

[00:12:56] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah

[00:12:57] Joanne Starkman: so beautiful and sacred and just too, um- Feel that energy. I tell you, there’s something, um, when you’re feeling those rocks, for me, it’s almost… It’s otherworldly, so it’s very, very old and, like, I’m gonna say Stone Age, Neolithic. Mm. But then there’s this other piece of it to me that is very, like, interstellar or intergalactic.

So you’re kind of merging, like, this earth-earth energy, but with this otherworldly energy. I mean, I had that- Yeah … multiple times because we did go to, um, what they call tombs. Like, they’re these tomb- portal tombs, but she calls them, what, temples. So she feels like they were way more sacred than just, like, a burial ground.

Like, she feels- Yeah … like, kind of the way she was describing it. There were so many different sacred sites that we went to. Another one that comes to mind for me is the wells. [00:14:00] We went to a couple of Brigid’s wells, and, um, those seem to be throughout Ireland, and they have a lot of people healing themselves with the sacred waters.

And what I felt was, again, otherworldly, just the peace and the presence. And, I mean, I could cry just thinking about, like, the sacredness, uh, and the stillness and, you know, just the compassion and love that comes from the earth through these- Mm … sacred waters is just like no other. So we went to a couple, like I said, a couple Brigid’s wells, and then on St.

Patrick’s Day, you mentioned St. Patrick’s Day, we were at St. Patrick’s Well. And I say that… And stop me if you have questions ’cause I know I’m just like, you’re like- … “Oh, this is an interview, girl, and can I get a world- word in edgewise?” ‘Cause I’m just gonna- Well, I did- … keep on going. But go. I’m gonna- I did have two things that- Yeah.

Yes … like, 

[00:14:59] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yes … arose, like, as you were speaking, and one was, well, A, just like a comment on, you know, the, the rocks and, and the energy that you felt through touching those rocks felt otherworldly. And it made sense to me in the sense that when you zoom out, you know, the earth is part of this amazing, vast galaxy, part of many other galaxies.

Like, it’s huge, and we are, you know, on this Big planet that really we, we, uh, I think often take for granted. Mm-hmm. Um, but every, you know, every piece of, of the land is, is very, very, you know, special and, and holds its, its own, um, sacredness in, in its own ways. 

[00:15:46] Joanne Starkman: Well, and the other word that comes up to me as I hear you talking about that is, like, the mystery of it.

Mm-hmm. Because we don’t even truly know really truly… We are only ha- we only have conjecture of how those stones got there, because when you see the stones, you’re just like, “That would take a crane. That would take-” Like, we could do that today. Yeah. But how did they do it back then? Like these- Yeah … even the portal tombstones, like, how did they do that?

Like, we have no comprehension whatsoever. And so I feel like there’s some certain mystery, number one, and then to me, there’s something that’s, like, almost like this returning home. Like, I feel like- Mm … our evolution somehow, we are going to be, I don’t know whether it’s in our lifetime or what lifetime it is, learning some of these mystic practices that have- Yeah

been lost over the years. Mm-hmm. So anyway, I- that just kinda came to me when you were talking. 

[00:16:53] Alex Bélisle-Springer: It’s- no, but it’s, it’s great because you mentioned returning home, and, um, one of the things that I remember from our call way back when, I think it was in January when we spoke, um, you’d mentioned that you had Irish lineage.

Mm-hmm. And one of the, one of my curiosities was, well, A, you know, what was your intention going in, um, to this experience, this journey, and has it reconnected you to your lineage or impacted your sense of identity in any sort of way? 

[00:17:25] Joanne Starkman: Hmm. That’s a really good question. I love that. Well, I mean, it was interesting.

A couple things. I mean, I think, um, not so directly. Not like I’m like… I- I mean, that’s the short answer, to be like, “Okay, I went there feeling like I was gonna try to find something in my own lineage.” I think w- through the stories that I heard people say, like the other women, and connecting and just remembering Like humanity, I guess.

Mm. And so f- maybe from a bigger, larger [00:18:00] place, which feels okay for me. Like, I don’t feel like, “Oh, it has to be about me and my family,” and whatever it is. But connecting me to humanity in a deeper way, for sure. Because seeing these- Mm … beautiful, incredible, powerful women, and being able to spend time with them, and watching everybody come to these sacred sites with such authenticity and intention, and, you know, just wanting the experience and intending to enrich their lives.

Because it, it does make me think, like, that when we do these kind of things, like when I go out and spend two weeks, like, in traveling and with the intention to just soak up the earth and soak up the energy and be present with nature- Yeah … and then for me to be able to come back, I feel like I’m such a better person.

So then I can come back into my company, and I can be a better leader. I can be more present with my family. I can be, like, more inspired. And so then it’s kinda, what comes to mind for me is, like, this ripple effect. So I think, in short, to answer your question, I don’t think it was, like, directly my lineage, but I think- Yeah

definitely, um, it definitely resonated and spoke to me. And I think just anytime, for me, I don’t know what it feels like for you or anybody else listening, you know, spending time in nature like that is just so rejuvenating. I mean, there’s just nothing better than soaking up that earth energy. And especially when you’re exploring, it creates this sense of, like, open-mindedness that you want to expand your vision and think a little differently.

I mean- You get to meander. You get to meander, yes. And you know, now that I’m thinking about it, you know, it could’ve been otherwise, because sometimes travel can be difficult. Like, and we’re in a bus, like, with, you know, 12 other women, and, you know, spending all that time together and everything like that.

You can kinda get cranky and crotchety, but we didn’t. Like, that’s the, that’s the other- Yeah … interesting thing too, now that I’m kind of able to reflect on it. It was quite magical just all the way around, I would say. 

[00:20:19] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Mm. Yeah. I absolutely adore this for you. I’m so happy that it was- Thank you … well, hopefully, uh, just as, as- Good and ex- if anything, you know, exceeded the expectations maybe you had for it.

[00:20:33] Joanne Starkman: it was way better than I could have ever imagined, for sure. Mm. Yeah. 

[00:20:38] Alex Bélisle-Springer: You mentioned, like, ripple effects, um, on, you know, traveling and doing these ty- types of experiences, coming back home and, you know, sh- being able to show up as a better leader, uh, you know, being more present for your family. What are you bringing back from this specific trip, from this experience, maybe personally and/or professionally?

[00:20:58] Joanne Starkman: Yeah, I mean, I think it is just that. It’s being able to really re-remember the importance of self and re-remember the importance of being out in nature and remembering that taking those times for ourselves is not selfish, and it’s not… Because I think that’s the other thing too. I could have been like…

I mean, and probably I wasn’t, and if I look back on it and be like, you know, trying to get ready for a two-week trip, that’s, like, a tough task when you’re- Sure … you know, got as l- lot on your plate. And so- Yeah … um, I think just remembering that we need to unplug. You know, I’m a kind of a workhorse, and I definitely, um, can m- take a lot on, for sure, but I think these kind of things, I, I’m, probably what I’m bringing back for myself is remembering, like, these kind of unplug opportunities are, need to be done.

They are a non-negotiable, um, time for yourself. So if anybody out there is thinking about signing up for any sort of spiritual retreat or anything like that, I’m gonna say right now, do it- Do it … do it, do it. I hope I change somebody’s life right now because, um, I don’t care how much work you have, you can always rearrange that, and I think you’ll come back a better person, so.

[00:22:24] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Mm. I know that you, uh, ’cause you’d shared this with me, um, earlier this year, you have studied Peruvian shamanism- Mm-hmm … as well. Mm-hmm. Um, when it comes to, like, going on spiritual retreats or learning about indigenous practices, uh, I know that, like, that is something that obviously kind of, when you come back, y- and especially if you’ve studied those, those practices, like, I, I’m, I imagine that it kind of permeates the way you operate in your life, in your business.

How, I guess, do you protect the integrity of these practices while still making them accessible, I guess? 

[00:23:04] Joanne Starkman: Well, I’m just… I mean, one example comes to mind. I don’t know. I’m, I mean, I guess I could kinda give a couple examples. And, and again, they’re not straight dotted lines to a specific… I don’t feel like I’m a keeper of any specific lineage as far as indigenous cultures because I feel like I wasn’t born into a lineage.

Like, I wasn’t born… I’m not Peruvian. I wasn’t born into that lineage, so I don’t feel like I’m the keeper of it. But I do feel like I can honor certain practices and maybe… And I’ve never even thought about this before, so thank you for the answer- I mean, asking this question. I feel like I can, and we can all be an amalgamation of different energy practices, because that’s basically what they all are.

And I think that that was one of the things that Louise and I talked a lot about when I was in Ireland. Because ironically enough, Louise is studying Peruvian shamanism. I didn’t even know that. No. So a lot of the things that she was doing, like, were things that I could understand and know what she’s doing.

And so for her thing is, she feels like we are in a time in the energy that these elders are wanting people to connect and to bring these lineages forward and start to connect together. Hmm. If I… That makes sense. I don’t know that- Yeah … I’m saying that correctly, but I think that there is something to be said.

Because for me, what comes to mind, and this is just my own personal experience, I never wanna be that person, or I never wanna be in those kinds of environments where it’s like, “Well, what I have is better than what you have.” 

Because I think one of my core values is acceptance, and I think acceptance not only comes from accepting ourselves, but accepting- Everybody else accepting our differences and valuing other people for their differences and to be able to say that you have these practices and I have these practices and they might look different, but ultimately they’re heading in the same direction, and I think that creates a sense of belonging.

Mm. Because I think if we can feel like you and I can be together and have different viewpoints and see things a little bit different way, but ultimately we’re still human beings and we both wanna heal, we both wanna be loved, we both wanna have, um, a happy life and prosperity and whatever, we have more similarities than we do have differences.

I feel like I went down a different road than what we were talking about. I wanted to give an example, though, of… Did you have any comments about that? Because I was… I feel like I went down on a tangent, but- No, it’s all- I was trying to s- yeah. 

[00:26:02] Alex Bélisle-Springer: No, no, you can, you can keep going. Honestly, it was super interesting.

It was a- Okay … very interesting train of thought. I didn’t wanna interrupt it. Um, 

[00:26:09] Joanne Starkman: yeah. Well, no, I think why… What I wanted to do was give a couple of different examples, because you talked about how, I think what your question was, like, how do they honor them- How do you honor it? Yeah … or how do they, how do they show up?

Okay, so I’m gonna give one example. So we have something that is called our Founder Summit that happens every year, and we invite probably about 150 stylists from out, fr- from all over the United States, plus Canada. Mm-hmm. And, um, and any other… Oh, and international. We’ve had some international stylists come as well.

But, um, these are, like, our top stylists, and we host them at a location in Austin, Texas. It’s called Miraval, and it is a beautiful property that is all… It’s an indigenous, um… No, I’m sorry, it’s a Native American, uh… They have healers there. And anyway, long story short, you can get spa services, and then we come in, we s- buy out the whole property for the- Mm

the two days. And, um, hairstylists can get self-care, and we have programming, we have education. But this year, I actually brought in the shaman that I studied under for years and years and years and years, and she did what is called a despacho. And a despacho is like a prayer bundle or, um, the Shamans would use it in celebration.

You could- you could do a despacho for many different reasons. Mm-hmm. But we were doing it, like, in our closing ceremony to kind of bring more love into the community and into the world. Right. And, um, it’s a beautiful bundle, and so you put different ingredients down. You blow your prayers into the kintus, which are the little leaves that you put in, and all the different ingredients you’re constantly blowing your prayers into.

So it’s a very, like, prayerful ceremony that’s very, very beautiful. And then Greg and I, because we… There was too much wind on the property. Everybody left that day afterwards, after we did this despacho, and Greg and I were… Our intention, because we were staying a couple days later, our intention was to burn, to have a fire ceremony- Yeah

and burn the despacho for the community. We weren’t able to do it there on the property, so I had to bring it home to my house and burn it there. But that’s kind of, like, one example. Now, these despachos, you can put them… You can bury them, you can burn them, you can put them in water. But this specific one was, the intention was to burn it.

So that would be one example of kind of exposing my community and staff and people that are here to, like, a ceremony that they might not be aware of at all. And, um, I think that would be one way that, one example of one way that I am honoring, you know, specifically that l- lineage or tradition in a way that, you know…

Like I said, I’m not necessarily… I guess I’m just kind of the keeper of wanting people to be present and open their mind to different ways- Mm … to live a more- Yeah … happy and joyful life, because I’ll tell you what the result of that was. People just felt so aligned and energized, and it was a reflective moment for people, and it was beautiful.

Yeah. So. Yeah. I don’t know. Did I answer your question? 

[00:29:34] Alex Bélisle-Springer: You absolutely did, and now I have another one coming- Yeah, yeah, yeah. … um, where… ‘Cause, ’cause, you know, I know that you’ve shared your enthusiasm for, like, the evolving relationship of, um, I guess between the h- hair industry and wellness and, and- 

[00:29:48] Joanne Starkman: Mm-hmm

[00:29:49] Alex Bélisle-Springer: seeing more spiritual practices or energetic practices in- Mm-hmm … hair and beauty. Yes. Um, do you feel a sense of responsibility to pass what you know and what you have experienced, um, onto people who are in your circles in the industry? 

[00:30:10] Joanne Starkman: You, it’s funny, you use the word responsibility. How do you know-that I have a sense of respons- How do you know that’s part of me, uh… What is it, what is it, uh… Oh, man, what is that book where you, uh, do the test and it’s like your, uh- The Strength Finders? It’s gonna… Yes. How did you know that one of my Strength Finders is responsible? I think that’s, like, my top one.

You’re making me wanna go take the test again, ’cause I’m like- … th- is my responsibility dying down? I’m like, have I lo- left that one behind? I don’t know. It’s funny that you, it’s funny that you say that because when you say like, do I have a sense of responsibility, I’m like, “No, not so much.” Like, I just wanna do what I wanna do.

But what’s so funny is I’m thinking about my Strength Finder, and I’m like, holy crap, one of them is responsibility, so. You just hit a chord there with me with the word responsibility. Isn’t that funny? Well, it is funny. Um, 

[00:31:08] Alex Bélisle-Springer: And now I’m like, I remembered the Strength Finder because Phorest at the time, I don’t know if they still do it, honestly.

W- I’ve been with Phorest 10 years now, so. 

[00:31:15] Joanne Starkman: Yeah. 

[00:31:15] Alex Bélisle-Springer: But I remember when I joined, I was asked to take the Strength Finders test, and I don’t actually remember what- Yeah … came out of it. I need to go back. I definitely have the results somewhere. I’m gonna have to go back. I’ll send you an email, send it over to you.

Okay. And then I’m gonna 

[00:31:28] Joanne Starkman: share mine with you too because I don’t remember what the other four off the top of my head. Maybe as I’m talking I’ll remember them. But, um, it’s funny, that responsibility is one that I just carry with me, which makes me wanna go take the test again, really, honestly. Mm. But what I was gonna say is, I guess when responsibility is dialed too high, it can look controlling.

Mm. 

So that’s funny too. Oh, that is 

[00:31:54] Alex Bélisle-Springer: a big one. Isn’t that- Yeah … 

[00:31:56] Joanne Starkman: a big one? Yeah. But yeah- So I- … I can see 

[00:31:58] Alex Bélisle-Springer: That, yeah. 

[00:31:59] Joanne Starkman: It [00:32:00] is 

because it’s like you hold something so, like you’re so fierce on, like you want this thing to happen or to do this thing, and so then it can look kinda controlling. So with that being said, I’m trying to be less controlling in my life.

And so when you say, do I feel a sense of responsibility to bring these forward, yes, and I just always see myself… I think one of my superpowers is holding a container and space for things so that it’s like I don’t sometimes feel like I’m the one that has to do it and take credit for it. Mm. But can I facilitate and hold this beautiful energy and recognize maybe the right people to put together in order to kind of put, move the ball forward or move the needle forward?

That I feel like I’m doing because- Yeah … I feel like I’ve done that with my education already so far. Just like, our core curriculum I think is not only world-class, but I feel like I had a little hand in just starting to open that conversation around how we can use angles and holding the hair in a certain way to make it more healing and more magical.

And in addition to that, I actually currently, as we speak, have three of my top educators working with one of my mentors so that they can kind of come back and come back to Inner Sense, and we can all work together on really pushing this hair as a healing practice forward. Right. So thank you for asking the question, because I do get super fired up about this-

if you can’t tell- … and I am making it happen. And yes, I do feel a sense of responsibility. Yeah. Because I do think that that was one of the seeds that I sowed early on, even conceiving Inner Sense, was wanting to elevate the beauty, the vibration. I, I always say it as like, take it what you will, but elevate the vibration of the beauty industry.

Mm. So that is, to me, um, what I set out to do with- Yeah … Inner Sense. And I just see us as a company not only caring for the caregivers, who I see as stylists being caregivers, but I also see stylists as being healers. And so I wanna be a place where you can come and find community and find like-minded people that are really wanting to focus on doing good things behind the chair and, um, be able to feel like you’re being…

your mind is being expanded. Mm. And you might be thinking about different things. Like, when you walk away from an Inner Sense event, you’re [00:35:00]like, “Oh, wow, I can do that, but I can also do this and that and this and that and this and that.” Because what I believe is we all have these beautiful gifts and talents inside of us that is our inner sense, that if we only tap into them, we can find our right and perfect direction and journey, and- Mm

I’m not gonna call it a destination because I don’t think life is a destination, but I just think we are all guided and guarded by this beautiful light that is within us. Yeah. So. 

[00:35:35] Alex Bélisle-Springer: And sometimes we need someone to create the container for us to explore it Yes Yeah Yes, yes, yes, yes It’s, it’s so true, though, and it is such a skill to be able to hold space for people to just, like, question, think about things, explore within themselves.

Like, what does that look like? Like, what is my gift? Like, how, how do I wanna tap into it? Um, I’m, I’m actually kind of curious as [00:36:00] well, you know, about, like, y- obviously, there was a whole journey to building Inner Sense. Mm. Within that journey, within all of the spiritual practices and learnings from that that you’ve had, what are the biggest lessons you’ve learned, or what has it taught you about care, maybe for the self, guests, community, nature, planet Earth?

Like- Mm … you can go as, like, small or big as you wish, I guess. 

[00:36:28] Joanne Starkman: I mean, one of the things that comes up for me, and it just keeps coming up over, and over, and over again, because I’m a huge pro- proponent of meditation, I just think there’s so much power in presence, in just being present. Like, I look back on our journey, and I just feel like…

A- and not that I would do it any differently, but I feel like Greg and I have been able to continue to circle back to the power of presence and really focusing on our [00:37:00] mission and alignment because I feel like that’s the thing. It’s like when you’re really aligned, you can get so far so fast, as opposed to trying to, like, beat your head up against a wall and do it the hard way.

Like, work is hard, and this- Mm … needs to be hard, and I think I’m just getting to a place, like, the power of presence and being able to be present, like, with myself. Does this feel aligned with me? Like, that’s kinda where I’m getting to in my life now. Like, do I really wanna show up to this thing? Is this really where I need to spend my most, you know, precious energy, time, and attention?

And I would just kind of invite people to do that for themselves on a regular basis. Yeah. Yes, there’s certain housekeeping things that we have to do every day. Like, I’m not gonna be unrealistic about that. Like, I’m a hard worker. Don’t get me wrong. But, I think the more that we can spend time [00:38:00] on that inner journey inside of ourselves, and whether that be prayer, meditation, reflection, nature.

Like, I think there’s so many different ways to get it. Yeah. That is… puts us in a place of, like, things start showing up for us. Like, life gets a little bit easier. Like, I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m answering your question, but I just feel like when I look back on the years of, like, I’m gonna say the grind, I think the turning point for me and Greg was, are we willing to open our heart and realize that what we are doing matters and is important, and can we get out of our own way- Oh

and, like, let it happen? 

[00:38:48] Alex Bélisle-Springer: That last part, can we get out of our own way? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that resonates a lot. That resonates a lot. Um, I’ve just, I, I don’t know, it’s just, it’s, there’s a lot [00:39:00] of, um… And maybe that’s because I’m, like, in, in that process right now of trying to get out of my own way that it resonates so much.

Hmm. But I think I’m probably not the only one. Um, you know- Mm-hmm … anyone listening, I’m sure a lot, a lot of folks resonate with that as well. Mm-hmm. I’m curious to know what support looks like for you and if that has evolved over time. 

[00:39:23] Joanne Starkman: Hmm. I mean, I can go in many, many different directions with that.

Yeah. Like, I don’t know where you want me to go with that one. I mean- Um, I- it’s… Well, it’s interesting. Okay, I’m gonna talk a little bit about my daughter, my adult, um, daughter that is 30 years old. She is the director of Joy. Her name is Morgan. She is a phenomenal young lady. And, um, she was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder called Williams syndrome that affects about 7,500, uh, people, or in, I mean, a lot, oftentimes nowadays, most [00:40:00] infants are being diagnosed with it.

Um, but it is genetic, it’s a microdeletion on the seventh chromosome. I can go on and on and on about it, but basically how it manifests is global delay. So- Okay … fine motor, gross motor, cognitive, cognitive delay. The interesting and fun part about Williams syndrome is they are extremely social and- Hmm

very verbal. And so if you were to meet my daughter, you would not really understand the level and depth of her cognitive challenges. It would only be after you got to know her a little bit and understood it. So she will never be able to live fully 100% independently. That’s just what it is. 

[00:40:41] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Right. 

[00:40:42] Joanne Starkman: Um, so as of lately, balancing having this massive business and this- Hmm

massive community that I hold space for, that I take high responsibility on- … holding space for, um, Yes. [00:41:00] Um, I have been, um- You know, reflecting upon the caregiving aspect and really realizing, like, “Joanne, you gotta get yourself together and start getting this young lady a little bit more independent and get her kind of on her path,” because she comes in to h- work with me, you know, she travels with me, and I love all this.

I love, love, love all this, and the one thing I wanna say too, just fun, fun fact, she’s on our, um, point of sale. She… There’s a beautiful picture of her in all the Ulta stores next to her signature product called Quiet Calm Curl Control. Mm. So if you’re listening to this and you’re f- going into an Ulta, please go check her out, take a picture of yourself with my daughter, and send it to me.

I wanna see that. 

Amazing. But 

anyway, um, that w- I can’t remember the word they used with the question, but that’s kind of what-

[00:41:58] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Um, what does support look [00:42:00] like for you? Yeah. 

[00:42:00] Joanne Starkman: Yeah. I just feel like I am needing more support, so I’m needing… She’s not in a program, which I don’t necessarily want her to be in because the…

I mean, she is-ish. Like, she does do social things with a program, like, you know, dinner. Uh, she goes out to dinner and games, like, twice a month, and she loves that. Um, but I am feeling like I definitely need to start figuring out, like, what could be the next look for her or the next, you know, kind of iteration.

And so I think that that, what support looks like that right, with that right now, I think I’m kinda creating that. Mm. Like, I’m kinda creating that right now. And, um, yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know if that answers your question, but- I mean- I don’t feel like I was… Yeah. Support looks like getting my daughter to live more independently.

Right. 

[00:42:56] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Well, that’s- Yeah … you know. Yeah. I think support can look like a [00:43:00] bunch of different things, and it’s also okay to try to just figure out what that looks like right now. If that’s where you’re at, that’s where you’re at. Mm-hmm. And that’s absolutely fine. 

[00:43:09] Joanne Starkman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:43:10] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Well, I’m gonna come back to the essence of, like, what we started with and bring us back to the land.

Um, I think it’s very much tied to your brand, to everything that you do anyways. And I, I guess Innersense is a B Corp, so I feel like I could not do this episode without asking you this. Yeah. How would you describe your relationship with the land at the very start of your career in the hair and beauty industry, then as you started building Innersense, and how would you describe that relationship today?

[00:43:42] Joanne Starkman: Hmm. Okay. Well, I’m gonna take it way back because I feel like, um, you know, growing up as a child, my dad, like, gardened. We always had a garden in our yard. Mm. Like, I can remember and taste in my mouth right now to this day my dad [00:44:00] having carrots planted and me being next to him- Mm-hmm … and him kind of… I don’t know what it’s even called, like, where you kind of, um, pull out some of the smaller carrots so then to let the bigger carrots grow next to it.

Yeah. You know? I don’t… The words are not coming to me. I don’t remember the word. That’s menopause. Um, anyway, uh, I can remember him pulling a carrot out, like, literally brushing the dirt off on his jeans and handing it to me, and me eating the carrot, right? And so I just remember- Mm … that taste, and it definitely does not- Yeah

taste like what a carrot tastes like when you buy them in a bag, you know, even at Whole Foods kind of thing. And so, um, I think there was a part of me… And I grew up camping and loved being at the lake and the river and, you know, so as a child, I definitely feel like I had this very, very strong connection to the earth and to the land very, very [00:45:00] naturally.

Now, then getting older and getting into the beauty industry, it was kind of all about, like, oh, what was reflected back to me in the mirror, and, like, the makeup and the hair. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I was the first person to, like, want a new lipstick or have all the eyeshadows or whatever. And then, um, you know, when Morgan was diagnosed and then I turned, realizing, like, what can I control in this moment, and that’s health.

Mm. I turned… I became a label reader, and so realizing there’s silicones, resins, plastics, synthetic fragrances, all these things that I didn’t want on Morgan’s hair, I didn’t wanna be using in the salon. And then to even understand that, um, the way ingredients are even processed, and there’s no truth in labeling, at least in the United States.

Mm. And so, um, started a conversation with Greg and myself, and then that’s when Innersense was born. And then realizing, you know, how Greg goes to the end of the [00:46:00] earth with the different ingredients that we source and the small, you know, farms that we connect with and, y- you know, the things that we do to manufacture and Support the brand in that way.

I feel like in a way it’s kinda come full, full circle. Like, I feel like I, you know… And I think that’s the way life is, right? Mm. We kind of start with something, and then we kinda get away from it, and then we get back to it, and then we- Yeah … get away from it, and then we get back to it. And that’s, like, the whole thing about, like, constantly coming home.

Like, am I perfect in even my own lifestyle? I travel a ton. I’m getting seed oils and things like that that I don’t necessarily want to be taking or whatever, but some of it is convenient, and so you kinda have this- Yeah … like, I try to get th- have this, like, 80/20 rule and things like that. So I, uh, um, I don’t know if that’s answering your question about being back to the land, but [00:47:00] I would say, you know, I don’t look at any of these things as a destination.

I think it’s all, like, circular, and we’re constantly coming back to the truth of who we really are. So in those mo- Mm … that moment when Morgan was diagnosed and then I became a label reader and started thinking about ingredients and all that kinda stuff, you know, I can directly correlate it back to my experiences digging in the dirt with my dad.

Yeah. You know? So. 

[00:47:31] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. Anyway, Thank you so much for sharing that. That- Yeah … like, honestly, even just the image of the carrot and the dirt, like, I’ve had similar experiences with my mom. My mom has been in horticultural kinds of worlds and spheres and touched on diff… She has had many, many lives in terms of her careers, but it’s always, always had a tie back to the land or something related to nature.

And, uh, I definitely [00:48:00] remember that feeling as well and that, like, that image of, you know, just- Mm … biting into a carrot freshly taken out. I was like, “Oh, yeah. I know exactly how that tastes.” Yeah. Um, I wanna end on this because I mentioned B Corp really just in passing with that co- Mm-hmm … that, that question.

And B Corp- Mm-hmm … is obviously all about impact. Um- Mm-hmm … in maybe these two aspects, I know we didn’t touch too much on, like, the emotional or psychological wellbeing, like, piece in, in this conversation, but as opposed to just environmental metrics, like, how do you define impact on, say, emotional, psychological wellbeing?

You know, there’s a huge component in social impact with B Corp. And then also just- Mm-hmm … when it comes to, I guess, conscious transparency more specifically as well. Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:51] Joanne Starkman: I mean, I think that these are our brand pillars, for sure. I mean, I don’t know why I’m… This isn’t part of the question, but I think what just came to mind too is, [00:49:00] like- It’s not just…

That’s all of it. It’s, like, the social responsibility. It’s the environmental responsibility. So B Corp encompasses all of that, but I also wanna mention that we are 1% for the planet. So 1% of everything- Mm-hmm … that we make gets donated to environmental causes. We also do things like, um, we are very closely connected with Breast Cancer Prevention Partners, which is a local organization here that lobbies for truth in labeling and transparency and all of that, so we support them.

They have a wealth of knowledge on, uh, breast cancer prevention, so if you wanna take a look at their website, it’s pretty incredible. We also support an organization called Lipstick Angels, which is out of Los Angeles, and they bring in wellness services to [00:50:00] people undergoing chemotherapy, and it’s pretty, in a pretty incredible way…

They’re in many, many hospitals throughout the United States in the oncology department. So they’re bringing in, like, scalp massages or, like, how, how to put your eyebrows on if you’ve lost your hair kinda thing. I mean, it’s just… Or like a little mini facial or, like, a hand massage. I mean, it’s just so incredible the care that they give to people who are really feeling probably at their worst, right?

Mm. Um, we also, on our website- We do, you can donate, you can ch- uh, at checkout on our website, you can choose which organization you wanna donate a perc- percentage of your sales to. So that to me is, like, offering our community the opportunity to give back through purchasing- Mm-hmm … products on our website.

So I think we’re always looking at ways to not only, number one, be more [00:51:00] transparent, but number two, give back in ways, in, in creative sorta ways. I mean, I think that that is just one of mine and Greg’s guiding lights is, like, people over profit, people and planet over profit sort of thing. Yeah. We really wanna leave not only the industry a better place, but we wanna leave the planet a better place.

[00:51:21] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Mm. And what I’m hearing a lot from what you just shared is, is that idea that we can’t do it alone and, like, partnership, collaboration- Mm … with, um, local organizations, people who are doing, you know, incredible work in other fields, and how we can all, like, merge forces essentially to make and, and, you know, leave the world a better place after us is, is the key to it all.

[00:51:47] Joanne Starkman: Well, here’s the thing about partnership. It’s not always easy, right? Mm-hmm. Because, um, you know, I mean, even partnering with Greg after so many years, but… And, and collaborate- relationships and collaborations are t- two of our core pillars here at Innersense. But, um, in partnership, we have to have so much self-love for ourselves and self-awareness- Mm-hmm in order to be in a relationship and partner because otherwise we just get triggered all the time, you know? Yeah. And our triggers are the best place to start with. When we’re being triggered by another person, it’s just a pointer on where we need to do the work ourselves. 

Hmm. 

And so- It, you know, relationship and partnership and collaboration and all of that, they’re phenomenal.

And I mean, I’m kinda making it, I’m taking something very macro and putting it down very micro Mm-hmm Because I, I agree with you. Partnering with all these other organizations are phenomenal because [00:53:00] I am not an expert at those things, but can I lend support to them? Yes, absolutely. But then again, in a relationship, and I’m thinking more so my relationship- my intimate relationship Yeah.

And my more connected relationships, I feel like I just, I continue to work really, really hard on working on myself. And so then that’s back- Mm-hmm We’re gonna circle back to my retreat, taking time for yourself, because if we do not care for ourselves, we cannot care for anybody else around us. And if we are not working on ourselves and recognizing our own shortfalls and our own shortcomings, it’s really hard to be in a relationship with other people.

[00:53:39] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And what I’ll add to that is really just, um, you know, the idea that we have to put the work on ourselves and do it alone and, and, or do it- Oh … like separated is like so… I don’t see it that way. Oh, right. I think we can always work on ourselves in [00:54:00] and with people around, in community.

Amen. You know? Love that. I love that. Yeah. Yes. Yes. ‘Cause, ’cause also, like, if you’re alone and you’re doing your thing in your own little vacuum, like, I don’t know, you just, you’re, you’re exposed- Well, I- … to so 

[00:54:15] Joanne Starkman: much less. Exactly, and it’s a little idealistic, I think. 

[00:54:19] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Mm. 

[00:54:19] Joanne Starkman: I think that’s, you know, we c- you know, I think, I kind of see sometimes people, and maybe, yeah, we bubble wrap ourselves, right?

Yeah. And not put ourselves out there and not try or, you know, choose to say yes and- Yeah … take the leap and make the effort and get in. Agreed. Yeah. 

[00:54:40] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. 

Maybe. It also, it, it’s, you know, you said idealistic, and I was like, yeah, actually, it, it almost, like, frames this idea of, like, self-betterment or self-improvement as, like, this one-off thing that you can eventually complete, which- Mm

you cannot. Like, it’s ongoing.

[00:54:56] Joanne Starkman: It’s so the onion. 

[00:54:57] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Yeah. So truly. Oh my God, I knew this was gonna be a brilliant conversation. Um, thank you so much for all of your shares. This has been so, so fantastic. Oh. I hope you feel the same way. You don’t have to- I do too. Yeah … 

[00:55:14] Joanne Starkman: but- 

No, it was great. I appreciate it. This was a fun, very enlivening conversation.

I know this is, like, I feel very, um, yeah, I feel very joyful right now, so thank you. 

[00:55:28] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Really means a lot. I’m glad. Joanne, before I let you go, where can people find you online, reach out to connect? 

[00:55:35] Joanne Starkman: Oh, yeah. Well, if you wanna have great hair, if you wanna have the healthiest hair you’ve ever had in your whole entire life, you can go to Innersensebeauty.com.

But for me personally, I am on Instagram, Joanne Starkman, and I also have a podcast, uh, Trust Your Inner Sense, and that is also on Instagram, and I’m sure we’ll, we’ll have a lot of things in the notes. Yes. 

[00:55:57] Alex Bélisle-Springer: Absolutely. You’ve been so generous in everything that you’ve shared today. Thank you. Aw. It really means a lot.

[00:56:02] Joanne Starkman: Yeah. Yeah. You’re so welcome. It was so nice to connect. 

[00:56:06] Alex Bélisle-Springer: It was really lovely. Thank you for having 

[00:56:08] Joanne Starkman: me.

[00:56:12] Alex Bélisle-Springer: What’s next? Where do we go from here, dear friend, listener? Well, if you’ve enjoyed this episode and you’re curious to learn more about the Sacred Spiral Retreat and Joanne’s experience, without a doubt, listen to Trust Your Inner Sense with Joanne Starkman’s episodes 58 and 59. On the PhorestFM podcast, some other episodes you could add to your list or revisit include season five, episode 193, on which we had Ashley Hodges discussing balancing wellness, career goals, and salon life; season six, episode 242, which featured Patty Monahan on the power of perspective; season eight, episode 288 and 289, a two-part conversation featuring James Parnell on conscious productivity; season [00:57:00] nine, episode 305, on which we welcomed Kia Neil, who spoke to the power authenticity holds for growth and fulfillment; or season nine, episode 317, a B Corp-focused episode with special guest co-host Daniel Johnson and guests Anne Butterly and Kelly Swan discussing harnessing the power of business as a force for good.

We also have some more sustainability-focused episodes if you want some more recommendations living in that realm. Feel free to DM me on Instagram for that @a.belspring. I’m always happy to share recommendations, by the way. And while I’m on the topic of recommendations, I’ll also share two book titles that- are on my TBR this year, so to be read.

If anyone has read them or wants to read them and discuss them later, these are the two titles: Making Love With the Land by Joshua Whitehead and The Moral Circle: Who Matters, What Matters, and Why by Jeff Sebo. And if you didn’t know, there are many book lovers at Phorest. So if you’re ever in a search of a book rec, whether it’s business-focused, self-development, fiction, nonfiction, well, you know where to find us.

Make sure you visit the links in the show notes for all that has to do with Inner Sense and Joanne’s podcast, Trust Your Inner Sense. And on that note, thank you so much for spending the past hour or so with us. Lakila tamagiks fos. Together, we grow.

The PhorestFM podcast is brought to you by Phorest Software. More than software, we’re on a mission, together with our community, to build a stronger industry. 

[00:58:40] Alex Bélisle-Springer: This episode was edited and mixed by Audio Z, Montreal’s cutting edge post-production studio for creative minds looking to have their vision professionally produced and mixed.

Great music, makes great moments.